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Warning: SPOILERS for Perry Mason “Chapter Thirteen.”Perry Mason season 2 has already taken several turns with its high-profile case of the Gallardo brothers gunning down Brooks McCutcheon, but episode 5 is when the pieces start to fall into place. While Matthew Rhys’ hard-boiled defense lawyer now knows his clients were hired to kill the rich sleaze, he still doesn’t know why or by who. Furthermore, the Gallardos themselves nursed a reasonable grudge, given that Brooks’ push for building a stadium displaced their community and ended in their sister’s death.
On the other side of the case are LA’s District Attorney Hamilton Burger (Justin Kirk, who also lights up the screen on HBO’s Succession) and his right-hand man Thomas Milligan (Mark O’Brien, who is new to the series). While the former has been a personal friend to Perry and his right-hand woman Della Street (Juliet Rylance), the complexity of the current case creates a gulf between them as they each struggle to justify their version of the truth.
Screen Rant spoke to Kirk and O’Brien about how Hamilton Burger and Thomas Milligan are handling the tricky Gallardo case in Perry Mason, what they’ve learned from the long legacy of the franchise, and why fans should be prepared for the remaining episodes of season 2.
Justin Kirk & Mark O’Brien Talk Perry Mason Season 2
Screen Rant: Justin, you had a really interesting exchange with Mason in the first episode of season 2, where you talk about true justice versus the illusion of justice. How would each of you say your characters are feeling about that statement by the end of episode 5?
Justin Kirk: I think I’ve got my mind on things other than what really happened. Mostly keeping my job as the new DA with my first big case, so I put my hotshot Thomas Milligan on it. Don’t blow it!
Mark O’Brien: What your character said about the illusion of justice applies to everybody on the show to one degree or another. Even for my character, I think at a certain point it becomes about winning. You kind of create your own narrative for yourself, justifying the way you perceive something and deciding it is correct, but it might be different from everyone else’s truth. I think that’s one of the strengths of the show; everybody’s point of view is their own. It can be right and wrong, depending on which way you’re willing to look at it.
Mark, you are new to the world of Perry Mason this season, though it’s been so long since last season that everything feels new. What was it like for you to step into this world of Depression-era Los Angeles, and did you do any research on the many iterations that came before?
Mark O’Brien: First of all, I was welcomed with open arms by the fantastic actor of stage and screen, Justin Kirk. Everyone else, from Matthew Rhys to Juliet Rylance and Chris Chalk really kept a wide berth between us, let’s just say, unfortunately. [Laughs] No, it was great.
I was very familiar with the original series, the way I think a lot of people. I actually don’t watch a ton of television, but in 2020, I watched Perry Mason as soon as it came out and was obsessed with it. I love ’30s and ’40s noir and LA stories, so I was enamored by that kind of stuff. I was a big fan of a lot of the actors on the show, so I was very tuned into it because I thought it was a great series. In fact, when I was watching it, I remember several times turning to my wife and being like, “God, I’d love to be a lawyer in season 2 of this.” I swear to God.
You manifested it! Justin, you have a much bigger role in season 2, and we’re getting into the nitty gritty of your job with this high-profile case. Can you talk about where Ham’s head is at?
Justin Kirk: It’s interesting, because in Perry Mason iconography, Hamilton is his rival. We often seem to start that way, and but it’s also a complicated relationship because while they’re on opposite sides of the case, they’re having a drink in the bar at the end of the day. Maybe that’s part of his cynicism about the illusion of justice. It’s all full of crap.
Mark O’Brien: Weren’t you telling me before, Justin, that Burger used to lose in every episode of the original?
Justin Kirk: He’s the Washington Generals of lawyers. I don’t know if that goes over too many heads, but that’s the team that would always lose to the Harlem Globetrotters. It was scripted; that was how it works. I believe in the original Perry Mason, Burger might have won two cases over the entire span of the series.
I read somewhere that Sonia Sotomayor was a Hamilton Burger stan, and that was part of her coming up in the world of law. I may have made that up, but I’m pretty sure you can Google it.
Mark, Tommy doesn’t seem like he would want to have a drink with Perry anytime soon. What is it about him and this case that gets under your skin?
Mark O’Brien: I think it’s honestly that he just thinks Perry’s lesser than him. There’s a breed of people that I think exists today, but they’ve always existed, who just automatically think they’re better. To Milligan, Mason’s like a bug. I look at him, and I just see no progress. Whereas Thomas? He’s always looking for progress. It’s like, “How can I get ahead? How can I just get that thing?”
As one of lesser stature, Mason is just something that’s in his way. I don’t even think he has any regard for Perry at all at this point in the series. And it’s actually kind of fun to play people like that, because I’m not like that. It just keeps them on such a forward path, where there’s no complication. He’s not confused; he’s not conflicted. “I’ve just got to do what I’m going to do, and I’m going to be rewarded like I always am.” It’s like playing a villain in a movie; there’s a joy in that.
Justin, Hamilton had a close relationship with Della in season 1. What has changed since then? How has their relationship shifted after the Dodson case, and will we still get to see Ham and Delia bearding for each other?
Justin Kirk: I love our date nights. We have the first one in season 1, and we do a little more of it in 2. You’ll see as the season goes on that, much like with Mason, we do maintain our weird friendship despite the fact that we’re on opposite sides. A big part of that is the fact that we know each other’s secrets, and no one else does.
Speaking of secrets, Mark, we get a really interesting scene in episode 5 between you and Strickland. What does he have up his sleeve? What can you tease about the next steps in the case?
Mark O’Brien: Oh, my God! I can’t tell you any of that. That’s what’s kind of great, because like what Justin was talking about with him and Della, there’s a similar thing going on with Pete and Perry. They understand each other and the fact that these are the rules of the game, they can still respect one another and can still like one another. But there are certain rules, and you’ve got to put food on the table.
I think for Shea Whigham’s character, he’s just kind of stuck. His paychecks come from a certain place, and if someone like me is asking him to do something, friendships kind of get severed when those things happen. But I still think regardless of where that goes, I think there’s always respect between Perry and Strickland. No matter how far one will go with the other, I still think they kind of get it. That’s what’s cool about the show; it’s about law and order and right and wrong, and it’s guilty and innocent, but it’s all gray areas. It’s all the way you want to look at it, and it’s all what you do to get this thing.
The show goes into the intricacies of that really well, and there’s certainly a fine line that is balanced between myself and Strickland once we go down that path. I don’t want to give away too much, but it’s really interesting because he’s it leaves him greatly conflicted.
Justin Kirk: And despite being our protagonist, Perry is not by any stretch a white knight at all times. He does some shady things behind the scenes, and I think that’s interesting too.
Has being on a series like Perry Mason made you reflect on how little has changed in our justice system and how far there is to go?
Mark O’Brien: I think so. Because it’s what you’re doing every day, and you see that a lot of it is based on a viewpoint. It’s based on the interests of other people, so I don’t think it’s ever going to be perfect because people aren’t perfect. People are always going to disagree and are always going to have ulterior motives. It’s an imperfect system, no matter what way you put it. Even if you’re happy about a certain outcome, the next day’s outcome might be completely unjust. There’s no way to fix it, so you just strive to do the best you can. That’s the way I kind of see it.
Perry Mason has a long legacy that has been ongoing for decades. Where do you guys see this iteration going, and what other aspects would you like to explore of your characters in hopefully future seasons?
Mark O’Brien: There is the idea of a case per season, but what’s cool about this is that the show is opened up the door to so many characters whose lives you can step into. It’s such an interesting time period where there are so many changes and so many things happening. This show changed so much from what it was that it can almost go anywhere in a way. That’s kind of what makes it exciting; I don’t even know if future seasons would just be one big case for the whole season. I almost think it could get more complex and even more layered than that.
Justin Kirk: In today’s world of television, I think that even the best shows have a limited shelf life. After 40 hours of content, it’s like, “Okay, the story is told.” However, Perry Mason is like Curb Your Enthusiasm. You could do it all day long, man. The nature of Perry Mason is one that I think could go forward. That’s all I got.
Speaking of the landscape of television, you are also great in Succession. What can you tell us about Jeryd this season?
Justin Kirk: Probably nothing, because they’ll send someone to the house. The fun thing is that, as a watcher of the show, I only read the scripts that I’m in. It’s fun to watch and enjoy every episode.
About Perry Mason Season 2
Months after the Dodson case has come to an end, the scion of a powerful oil family is brutally murdered. When the DA goes to the city’s Hoovervilles to pinpoint the most obvious of suspects, Perry, Della, and Paul find themselves at the center of a case that will uncover far reaching conspiracies and force them to reckon with what it truly means to be guilty.
Check out our other Perry Mason interviews here:
New episodes of Perry Mason air every Monday at 9:00 PM ET/PT on HBO and will be available to stream on HBO Max.
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